Hey fritz
No sure weather this is the right email but anyways here goes hope you can read all the stuff and help me out.
I am 15 years old and live in Australia and been playing for around 2 years.
I play space marines (what a surprise), specifically a Kor’sarro khan army.
I got the idea to play Kor’sarro khan a bit before your “null deployment” video after the video I was convinced on playing it. The army first started of always of as everything out flanking, but what I found that it would come on piece meal and get shot up with 2 rhinos against and entire army of shooting who had 2 turns to set up, although the army worked sometimes really well and that was most of the time other times against more experimented players who knew how to counter out flank it would just completely fail and fall apart on it’s self. In my area we play 1000 point matches sometime up to 1750 (rare). I have been trying to refine my list enough so that I have to courage to go to tournaments and play the older guys. But from the yabbering I observe on the internet some tournament players look like they’ll just smash up your hobby to hell and back and really I don’t want that because although I play to win like everyone else, I also want to have fun with my opponent. Not constantly arguing with them over rules and have they challenge my every more. Having them turn the game into something Not what I believe is 40K. I want to play for the enjoyment but also like everyone want to make my army as competitive as possible with out losing the fullyness of having Kor’sarro khan (counts As Uriel Ventris). Well here is the list
HQ
Kor’sarro khan @ 160
Command squad with champion X2 melta guns X2 lighting claws, storm shield, and rhino @ 230
Elites
Stern guard with x2 melta guns combi flamer rhino @ 175
Troops
Tactical squad with melta gun, combi melta multi melta rhino @220
Tactical squad with flamer, Combi flamer missile launcher @215
Total being 1000
Also today I faced a mirror match up (were both army’s are the exact same) except this play was space wolves. I decided not to out flank as I would come on piece meal and get shot up. His army went as follow
HQ
Wolf priest @100
Elites
5 Wold guard with x3 wolf claws rhino @ 170
Troops
X3 10 grey hunters with 2 melta, power weapons rhino @ 205 each (WOW) total 615
Heavy support
Long fangs with X4 missiles @ 115
What is confusing and troubling me about marines is this, for 205 I get a flamer MM and rhino 1 attack per guy for the same price he gets double meltas and power weapon not only that his guys has a bolter, bolt pistols and close combat weapons and counter charge. is it just me or is he getting the better deal, it really makes me wanna quit my marines as fun as they are to play they just don’t play as competitive any more just because there’s a more recent codex that follows the lower points effect you pointed out that GW was doing. There seems no point to me to play an army that can be copied and pasted to another codex doing the list 10 times better. What was ironic was on my wipe out he had exactly 10 marines left. Which is what he out numbered me by. The marines kind of went boom into each other.
Here what else troubles me:
Am I playing my tactical marines more like grey hunters wrong, going up the field and shooting meltas, is this more tactical marine tactics completely wrong?
What improvements could or should be made to the marine list?
Is it me the player that is just playing this list completely wrong and should change something on how I play the list?
Am I playing an out dated codex that is just not practical any more since other MEQ codex’s play it better?
How can I expand to 1500?
These questions keep recurring in my head. I would like another view on this as mine is too close to the matter also I need advice out side my gamming group, from a person who understands the dynamics of the game better and doesn’t say ‘marines suck go play Space wolves or BA cause there better”.
Your advice, experience, and view on this issue would be much appreciated, as right now marines look like they just have lost there way in my view at least…..
Regards noodles (nick name for 40K)
Reply Out:
Noodles, lots to think about and you have noticed some of the trends in 40K, which we will get to in a moment.
I wanted to start with some advice regarding tournaments since it is obvious you have a passion for the hobby and enjoy the game- if you can attend and play in one go for it!
All the questions you have regarding them are normal and I had them myself years back when I decided to get into the tournament scene. Here are a few reasons.
Understandably there are a few jerk players in the tournament scene that will pop up from time to time, but they are not the majority. Most of the guys you will play will be just like you- into the game, there for fun, and pushing their skill for the win.
I’ve often said, and posted on my blog, that if you want to get “good” at 40K the quickest way is to play in a tournament or two. The first is that you will get to play X number of games against completely different opponents. Gaming clubs and hobby stores are great, but playing the same guys day in and out won’t always push your skill after a while.
Second during the event you will get to see a ton of armies on display- all ideas for modeling and painting for your own army or future army, along with armies that you can look at and ask yourself- how would I beat that army, etc.
Finally you will make friends in the tournament scene which will expand the hobby for you.
I’d say at least give one tournament a try…
Next up, codex creep.
It’s unfortunate, but 100% true, each new book that GW puts out is better than the last in terms of units and point cost. As you noticed with the space wolf grey hunters vs. your tactical marines, the ‘wolves get more for less. When Dark Angels and Black Templars come out you can bet they will be better then the ‘wolves.
This is the frustrating aspect of the hobby, but understandable- GW wants to move plastic models and sell armies.
So what to do if you are still playing the marine codex?
Fortunately it is still competitive, and can stack against the newer marine books with a few tweaks. Looking at the units in the marine codex you want to focus on units that the Space Wovles, Blood Angels, etc. don’t get. Sure you are going to need tactical marines as troops, etc. as a baseline, but you don’t want to stock your army with these units in full since you will always be outnumbered and outgunned. This is what we are going to check out in a sec when we get to your army list- and then well look at a Null Deployment/Outflank model. Here are some point to think about and you will have to play with the points a bit to see what can be done. I’ll try to work with the models you have and make new model suggestions where the benefit is justified in spending the money.
First Khan and your command squad.
Khan is a decent HQ choice even without the outflank and we want to use him as a close combat model where he excels at. You can put him in a regular tactical squad and he does “ok” if the unit goes up against a like unit, or in a command squad like you have which boosts his killy potential.
Khan and a command squad need a delivery system where they can get up into assault range and assault unmolested. The way to do this is with a land raider. The problem with a rhino is not only the AV 11, but the fact that you can’t move 12 and assault. Assaults will usually be on your next turn, as opposed to a land raider which moves 12”, disembarks you 2” and then assaults 6” for a 20” assault range. Yes melta has the potential to vape a rhino or a land raider the same with the 2d6, so you will have to keep in mind tactically ways to keep melta off your land raider.
Sternguard- a good choice for the marine codex for what they get, but again the delivery system is off with them in a rhino. I would put them in a drop pod- especially since this will come down turn 1. Before you buy a pod, you can proxy something for it, or even build your own that looks good if money is tight. A pod will give you huge payback allowing you to deliver the melta and special ammo right into your opponent for a first turn punch.
The last two rhinos with tactical are pretty standard and are ok. Missiles are good, but I’d go with las cannons for the extra +1 strength.
Bumping your list up to 1200-1500 can easily pay for the points, squeezing it in at 1000 might mean dropping the command squad and the two rhinos for a land raider and then potentially combat squading down the second for three troop choices, etc.
The stern guard in the pod are a suicide unit to take out the threat to your land raider and destroy vehicles so the guys inside get dumped out for your land raider to assault. Same with the tactical in rhinos-they pop the hatch and fire las or missile targeting vehicles.
Right now you are zooming up the field bringing your marines into a greater numbered opponent with no real “advantage”- if you cans strike first or before your opponent you can do enough damage to take down those numbers.
Does that make sense?
Minimally I would consider dropping the command squad down, going full tilt on the sternguard and a pod- ten marines dropping down and getting into cover with a 3+/4+ with combi meltas and special ammo will take stuff out and be around for a turn or two- time for the rhinos to move up and get into position without eating shots. Yes, the SG will die, but they will buy you a good deal in what they kill and time in the game.
Since the command squad isn’t scoring you could even consider dropping them and getting another SG squad in a pod to come in later and add Khanh in with them in the second pod to land, kill another unit, and then next turn assault.
I hope that gives you some ideas- look at your codex and build a Khan army around the units that the other books don’t get and think about how you can exploit them against your opponent. Going head to head with cheaper and better tactical marines just won’t work.
Let’s finish with a few line by line responses:
Am I playing my tactical marines more like grey hunters wrong, going up the field and shooting meltas, is this more tactical marine tactics completely wrong?
// In this case as noted, yes- charging up the field you are outnumbered and outgunned. You need to hang back and shoot and then charge, or have other units to crash into the ‘wolves, soften them up, and then finish them off with the tactical.
What improvements could or should be made to the marine list?
// In your face delivery system- land raider, pods, etc. Backed by units that can open up vehicles at range so the delivery system units have something to shoot at when they come in- and when they do come in they are in your opponent’s face, not a turn of zooming up. Even if you decided to outflank the raider it has that 20” range to hit units on the side it comes in and center.
Is it me the player that is just playing this list completely wrong and should change something on how I play the list?
// Not wrong, just a tweak in delivery.
Am I playing an out dated codex that is just not practical any more since other MEQ codex’s play it better?
// You are a bit under the gun but you are still marines and marines rule in 5th edition- even armies like Black Templars and DA- you just have to find and take what your codex has that the others don’t and exploit that.
How can I expand to 1500?
// Land raider, second SG and pod, more tactical, autocannon dreads/speeders, but now we might be getting away from the theme of your army.
These questions keep recurring in my head. I would like another view on this as mine is too close to the matter also I need advice out side my gamming group, from a person who understands the dynamics of the game better and doesn’t say ‘marines suck go play Space wolves or BA cause there better”.
// Nah! Hunker down, retool, and come back out fighting. Don’t overlook that fact that SW, BA, and GK players know their books are the best right now and that the marine dex is a bit older and not as good with stock units. Use this perceived weakness they have as your advantage, look, find, and come up with a combo or ideas that will overwhelm them in the moment, cause hesitation, disruption, and in that moment you seize the momentum , never give it back and win!
Hope that help!
-Fritz
